From: wbf@aluxpo.att.com Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 10:57:31 EDT Original-From: aluxpo!wbf (William Fox) Subject: Modulators in the complex plane, etc. >Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 17:58:57 -0500 >(Randy Jones) (rej@jerry.sal.wisc.edu) >Subject: Re: Yammy DX series > >>From: Peter Cassidy >>Subject: Yammy DX series >> Programming an FM synth is the electronic music equivalent to solving a >> Rubic's cube; it's very nonintuitive. > >It's all a matter of, like, where you come from, man. In the heyday of the >DX-7, I was at an age where new paradigms sneak into the mind and latch on >with remarkable tenaciousness. I find FM as intuitive as, well, Rubik's cube. > >Would have liked to see the method taken further, modulators in the complex >plane for example, or negative operator scaling, or mmmppph > >-Randy I'd like to hear your thoughts on what these are: 1. modulators in the complex plane 2. negative operator scaling 3. mmmppph where you HAVE seen them implemented, if at all, what they might sound like, and possibly how we can apply them to all of our yummie analog gear. Bill Fox Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 17:58:57 -0500 From: rej@jerry.sal.wisc.edu (Randy Jones) Subject: Re: Yammy DX series From: Peter Cassidy Subject: Yammy DX series > Programming an FM synth is the electronic music equivalent to solving a > Rubic's cube; it's very nonintuitive. It's all a matter of, like, where you come from, man. In the heyday of the DX-7, I was at an age where new paradigms sneak into the mind and latch on with remarkable tenaciousness. I find FM as intuitive as, well, Rubik's cube. Would have liked to see the method taken further, modulators in the complex plane for example, or negative operator scaling, or mmmppph -Randy Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 16:10:11 PDT From: till@lucid.com (Don Tillman) Subject: Yammy DX series Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 18:07:25 EDT From: Despite this being the Analogue list, I can't abide general dismissal of FM. Certainly. I didn't actually "dismiss" FM; indeed I find it very useful. It's just incredibly nonintuitive to program, and Yamaha's software engineering makes a difficult task near impossible. The 6-op Yamahas are much more powerful, but even the 4-op machines can be programmed to do very interesting stuff. I agree that FM is non-intuitive to program from scratch, but you can go far by modifying base patches, and "hybridizing" by sort of merging two patches (you have to understand operator stacks and what they are doing in order to achieve this). There are some decent books on the subject. I even found an Alexander Publishing book on the DX7-II that explains how to get simple ramp waves! Right, that's the Massey book I mentioned. It's not all that good though; in fact that recipe for ramp waves is way off. (!!!) -- Don Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 18:07:25 EDT From: I've been stolen by a gypsy. 26-Apr-1993 1805 Cc: analogue@ranger.enet.dec.com, eirikur@ranger.enet.dec.com Subject: RE: Yammy DX series Despite this being the Analogue list, I can't abide general dismissal of FM. The 6-op Yamahas are much more powerful, but even the 4-op machines can be programmed to do very interesting stuff. I agree that FM is non-intuitive to program from scratch, but you can go far by modifying base patches, and "hybridizing" by sort of merging two patches (you have to understand operator stacks and what they are doing in order to achieve this). There are some decent books on the subject. I even found an Alexander Publishing book on the DX7-II that explains how to get simple ramp waves! Eirikur (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0noSUX-000MTvC; Thu, 29 Apr 93 08:53 MET DST id ; Thu, 29 Apr 93 08:51 MET DST id ; Thu, 29 Apr 93 08:51 MET DST From: ricard@axis.se (Ricard Wolf) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 08:51:05 MET DST wbf@aluxpo.att.com Subject: Re: Modulators in the complex plane, etc. > [ ... DX7 ... ] > 2. negative operator scaling > In the Yamaha beasts, modulation amounts and amplitudes > can be set to increase with greater key velocity, but *not decrease!* > This is a crying shame, because it would have been as easy as pie to > implement, and would have opened the door to all kinds of new sounds. > Like velocity-sensitive crossfades in algorithms with parallel chains. > ANd many others. Anyone ever hacked around with the DX-7? I mean, reprogram the system ROM? It's about 16K of 6303 code, of which 12K runs the DX-7. The rest is the FUNCTION-16-32 diagnostic mode. You can't change algorithms, and things like that, since all that is done in real time within the Yamaha chips, but you could probably get negative scaling, or other curves. /Ricard -- Ricard Wolf / | \ / | /- email: ricard@axis.se Axis Communications AB /__| \/ | \__ uucp: axisab.se!ricard S - 223 70 LUND / | /\ | \ Tel: +46 46 19 18 63 SWEDEN / | / \ | \__/ Fax: +46 46 13 61 30 -- "There is this killing game - and my head will roll" -- Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 21:21:35 -0500 From: rej@jerry.sal.wisc.edu (Randy Jones) Subject: Re: Modulators in the complex plane, etc. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what these are: 1. modulators in the complex plane 2. negative operator scaling 3. mmmppph where you HAVE seen them implemented, if at all, what they might sound like, and possibly how we can apply them to all of our yummie analog gear. Bill Fox I'm assuming that there's a piquant mix of sincerity and sarcasm in your post, Bill, so I'll answer in kind. 1. Modulators in the complex plane. In Yamaha/Chowning FM, carriers and modulators are functions of one variable. Imagine functions of two variables modulating each other, and instead of one-dimensional wavetables, you can scan a 2-d scalar field to get your amplitude. I would try something sin(x^2+y^2) which should be equivalent to 1-d FM when Y = 0. Don't worry, this didn't originate with me, I think I copped the idea from some old CMJ article. But to my knowledge, nobody has tried it. I'd sure like to mess around with this. 2. negative operator scaling In the Yamaha beasts, modulation amounts and amplitudes can be set to increase with greater key velocity, but *not decrease!* This is a crying shame, because it would have been as easy as pie to implement, and would have opened the door to all kinds of new sounds. Like velocity-sensitive crossfades in algorithms with parallel chains. ANd many others. 3. mmmpppph is because I was talking about stuff which as you noticed doesn't belong here, and now you've made me do more of it, eck! Well, "negative operator scaling" is present on a few analog machines, I'm pretty sure. I'm sure Xpanders can do this, since you can do subtraction on them, and plenty of machines had negative VCF mod with respect to the VCA. About the 2-dimensional scalar field stuff, well you'd need some pretty specific hardware to do it... Maybe thinking of a *big* modular as an analog computer you could get somewhere close. Thoughts? -Randy From: Peter Cassidy Subject: Yammy DX series Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 6:39:45 BST Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25] > FM modulation was developed by John Chowning and the folks at Stanford's > CCRMA. Check out his book, and the Howard Massey DX-7 books for details on > how it works; the math involves Bessel polynomials and can get real hairy. > > Programming an FM synth is the electronic music equivalent to solving a > Rubic's cube; it's very nonintuitive. On top of that is Yamaha's complete > ineptitude in user-interface design and general software writing (the > envelope generators are almost too goofy to use at all!), the thing is > *really* difficult to program. So most folks just use those Godawful > factory patches. Yech. > I used to have a DX27, a simpler 4-op machine. Trying to program in a sound takes over an hour of button-twiddling and all you get at the end is yet *ANOTHER* bell-like sound. A total waste of time. The EG's have the following parameters A1 D1L D2L D2R RR. Gimme analog stuff ANY day !!!!! (If the frequency ratio of the modulator is not an integer, really nasty harsh stuff comes out of it !!!) -- Regards, Peter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | M O T O R O L A B . V . I R E L A N D | | ----------------------------------------- | | Peter Cassidy - T.S.E Dublin | Phone : 353-1-840-8866 Ext. 417 | | MACCVM : C10404 | X400 : peterc@comm.mot.com | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------