Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:33:15 -0500 From: Joe Miklojcik To: Chad Gould Cc: "'digitalhell@resrocket.com'" , len9@grim-determination.com Subject: Re: [Digital_Hell] K5000 net resources Advertising hype alert! Chad Gould wrote: > Two major blowouts in three months... the Alesis Wedgie blowout was one > thing, but I'm amazed at the K5000S/R blowout... especially the S > recently... even discounting ambient sounds, keyboard action, and > programmability, the way-cool MIDI arpeggiator ALONE is worth $450... (: I bought a K5KR during the recent blowout, and I have to disagree with what you're saying here. 1) The arpeggiator alone isn't worth $450. It's riddled with timing bugs, even with the 3.01 OS patch. Specifically annoying is the timing slop involved when you press and release keys with other keys down already and the arp running. It is nice that you can program your own arp patterns. It would be nicer if it worked well. 2) Most of the preset patches sound good because they are routed through heavy reverb or some other effect separate from the core synth engine. If you start turning off the effects, you will start to hear some ... unpleasant surprises. People are characterizing this as a synth for ambient sounds, but really if you run your other synths through a halfway decent reverb you'll pretty much get the same results. 3) It is fun to twiddle the FF and LP filter knobs while the arpeggiator is running. Once you get sick of that, however, there isn't much further to go in terms of interesting control destinations. For example, you can't modulate the aforementioned heavy reverb in real time (or at least if you can, they've buried the feature deeper than I'll ever look.) 4) The manual sucks 5000 ways. The paper is even too thick to effectively wipe with. 5) There's about 16 soft buttons around the display for use in editing. About three of them are active at a time, and most of the time at least one will have a special function that is not labeled at the edge of the screen. Whoever wrote this OS was painfully rushed, or had the UI savvy of an autistic child. Or more likely both. How long does the DCA attack segment last? "12". How long is "12", in seconds? We're not telling. 6) Patches are extremely difficult to write, especially if you're very used to sample-based subtractive engines. The K5K engine is "deep" in that there are a great number of things you can set to change the sound of a patch, however, not all of these things make immediate sense, you have to set tremendous number of them to get any results at all, and On the whole, the synth is worth $400. Don't think you're getting some wicked deal though. That's all hype. If Kawai fixed the OS and front panel UI, and found a few new ways to help users program patches, the value of the machine will increase greatly. They won't do that though. If they were going to, they wouldn't have sold all their remaining stock to samash. The honorable thing for them to do would be to open source the OS (http://www.opensource.org), so that I and other embedded system programmers could fix some of these problems for them. But that's just plain dreaming. I HAVE SPOKEN. (jfm3) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:37:41 -0500 (EST) From: Steve Pescatore To: Joe Miklojcik Cc: digitalhell@resrocket.com Subject: Re: [Digital_Hell] K5000 net resources Okay, i've got to stand up and defend my little silver friend here... ;) > I bought a K5KR during the recent blowout, and I have to disagree with what > you're saying here. > 1) The arpeggiator alone isn't worth $450. It's riddled with timing bugs, even > with the 3.01 OS patch. Specifically annoying is the timing slop involved when > you press and release keys with other keys down already and the arp running. > It is nice that you can program your own arp patterns. It would be nicer if it > worked well. okay, you're probably right that the arp alone isn't worth $450, (is *any* arp alone worth $450?) but it is extremely nice. another thing i've noticed, since i had a k5000s, but traded it for a k5000r to save space, is that the arp on the k5000s seemed to have much better timing, and was WAY easier to use. i used to use it all the time, but i hardly ever use it now that i have the rack (i'm thinking about getting another S for this, among other, reasons) > 2) Most of the preset patches sound good because they are routed through heavy > reverb or some other effect separate from the core synth engine. If you start > turning off the effects, you will start to hear some ... unpleasant surprises. > People are characterizing this as a synth for ambient sounds, but really if you > run your other synths through a halfway decent reverb you'll pretty much get > the same results. uhh... you need to dig a little deeper. who said anything about presets. the presets by and large stink, largely b/c they're routed through such heavy reverbs. try setting up 6 soft additive sources, time delay some of them, assign velocity to modulate a couple params, atouch a couple more, then use the 4 user knobs to control 2 params each (cutoff/inv res, or LFO speed/attack). then go in and p-lay with the FF for a while, setting up loop points, etc. no efx needed. then hold a chord, use the aftertouch, and tweak a knob or two. now tell me it doesn't work for ambient... > 3) It is fun to twiddle the FF and LP filter knobs while the arpeggiator is > running. Once you get sick of that, however, there isn't much further to go in > terms of interesting control destinations. For example, you can't modulate the > aforementioned heavy reverb in real time (or at least if you can, they've > buried the feature deeper than I'll ever look.) uhh.. you must not be willing to look very deep. go to the effects page and hit the button marked 'control' or something like that. i forget exactly, but you get i think 2 modifiers per effect, and i'm pretty sure you can assign those to the mod wheel. i agree it could use a few more destinations in the efx section, since the voices have such great mod routings, but there are some there. > 4) The manual sucks 5000 ways. The paper is even too thick to effectively wipe > with. okay, we agree on this 100%. > 5) There's about 16 soft buttons around the display for use in editing. About > three of them are active at a time, and most of the time at least one will have > a special function that is not labeled at the edge of the screen. Whoever > wrote this OS was painfully rushed, or had the UI savvy of an autistic child. > Or more likely both. How long does the DCA attack segment last? "12". How > long is "12", in seconds? We're not telling. while this may be a valid concern, you can't really expect every (or really even *most*) parameters to be scaled. name 1 synth where every parameter has a scale *and a value, and every button always does something. > 6) Patches are extremely difficult to write, especially if you're very used to > sample-based subtractive engines. The K5K engine is "deep" in that there are a > great number of things you can set to change the sound of a patch, however, not > all of these things make immediate sense, you have to set tremendous number of > them to get any results at all, and uh. then why did you buy a k5000? did you not think that programming with 6 sources x 128 harmonics x 2 sets x 4 timbres + effects + tons of control was going to be easy? > On the whole, the synth is worth $400. Don't think you're getting some wicked > deal though. That's all hype. i disagree wholeheartedly. i think the k5000 beats the shit out of 90% of comparable synth out there today. and the only ones that top it (say NM, maybe the Q, MWII?) are *MUCH* more expensive. DO think that you're getting a wicked deal, b/c you are. :) > If Kawai fixed the OS and front panel UI, and found a few new ways to help > users program patches, the value of the machine will increase greatly. They > won't do that though. If they were going to, they wouldn't have sold all their > remaining stock to samash. they already have made some great improvements to the UI since v1.0. kawai have shown us already that they are going to support the k5k. and they have been very helpful. if you feel the UI sucks that bad (i personally don't - i got used to it, and can get around it pretty efficiently), then use the free SoundDiver editor. > The honorable thing for them to do would be to open source the OS > (http://www.opensource.org), so that I and other embedded system programmers > could fix some of these problems for them. But that's just plain dreaming. uhh.. yeah, that is dreaming. anyway, these are my opinions on the synth, not a personal insult. --steve.